Functional vs. Creative and Technical

[Andy Edwards]

Yes, Jojo is doing something different but drummers trying to emulate machines?

We are so much better that machines because we are human and art is all about humanity.
I saw Jojo doing his 'reverse enginnering' at Drummerlive and I think it's a dead end artistically. (I must say he is an amazing drummer with great technique etc)

There is stuff that if you do it on the drums you are going to get critisized. It's the drum dogma!
This exists in both technique and groove. Groove used to be something seperate to time which was a musicians fingerprint. Now I hear drummers knocking players groove because their 'pockets not right'

For drumming to move forward these dogmas need to be questioned.

[Drumdawg]

Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
Yes, Jojo is doing something different but drummers trying to emulate machines?

We are so much better that machines because we are human and art is all about humanity.
I saw Jojo doing his 'reverse enginnering' at Drummerlive and I think it's a dead end artistically. (I must say he is an amazing drummer with great technique etc)

There is stuff that if you do it on the drums you are going to get critisized. It's the drum dogma!
This exists in both technique and groove. Groove used to be something seperate to time which was a musicians fingerprint. Now I hear drummers knocking players groove because their 'pockets not right'

For drumming to move forward these dogmas need to be questioned.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I appreciate your outlook Andy, but remember that the machines got it from the drummers (humans) in the first place. ie: James Brown, Meters, funk groove ect.. The machines might have de-humanized the feel a bit, but it also pushed the rhythms to new tempos, and helped create new phasing, which in return pushed the drummer to get better and not be over taken... It's all perspective. Whether you like the Jo Jo electronica or not, it's all an opinion and everyone's is valid. It might be a dead end art to you, but to others it will open many doors to new places. My goals and perspective is to take the DnB and Jungle ideas and re-humanize it. I agree and think that a lot of electronica is heartless and lacks a visceral element. Ad a human with technique and I hear possible new life? You may not feel it but that?s the beauty of music. It's art at the end of the day. Take it or leave it.
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Andy Edwards]

I don't think electronic music lacks feel or is dehumanised.
When sequencers were invented people began to push what they could do. Here in the UK certain dance producers started pitch shifting breaks up to the speed of House and beyond and a new style was born.
At the time in the early nineties Jungle was a very exciting music form and influenced me a lot.

But I once asked a a dance producer (who also loved jazz) why he didn't use real drummers. He said 'we don't need them, this music form is not about that. It's about pushing certain buttons in a club'

But drummers emulating drum and bass is seen in some quarters as clever. But this is not what this music form is about. Watching Jojo at Drummerlive left me feeling flat. But there is another point here. Talking to older players you get the feeling that live drumming was once valued by the business so there was a lot of work for drummers. Drum machines were seen as the poorer alternative. But look how everyone plays now. They try to get their playing as tight as possible, there sound as compressed and in your face as possible and if you can't do this Protools will do this for you.

We are putting ourselves out of business. Humanity it seems is not good enough anymore. I think it's time drummers stopped emulating the machines and do what we do best, sound like humans! That way songwriters and producers at least have the choice.

[Lee Collins]

Lol, it's true though. It's a bit of a catch 22. Drum machines first emulated drummers, drummers now emulate drum machines, and probably someone somewhere is currently programming a live drummers complicated groove that the live drummer originally got from a drum machine anyway and so we're back to square 1. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Drumdawg]

Great topic, but one thing I will point out though. I think lumping Jo Jo with Virgil and Thomas or comparing them after hearing Jo Jo's link is a bit off target. Yes, jo jo can hang technically with those two and has done some over technical music, but the difference is that Jo Jo is actually pushing the musical barrier. Most times you'll usually hear these drummers playing fussion or really bad excuses of songs. Jo Jo is stretching the envelope of music by taking the electronica to the next level. I've yet to hear Virgil do that on any musical recording or such, despite his ability. When I hear Jo Jo?s band, I hear a dirty pocket, it's just a different style. The point... Jo Jo is taking all the chops and is using them to play a style of music that requires such technique which hasn?t been exploited yet (electronica done with real drumming). He's breaking down the wall of normality of some everyday music.
Chops vs. groove??? I?d rather be the guy doing something unique, what ever it is, period?
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Groovemeister]

Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
Watching Jojo at Drummerlive left me feeling flat.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]eek.gif[/img]

I sat 3 foot behind him and was just in awe... I love the detail and vibe of this dude's playing...And, I love Drum And Bass...

MP

[Drumdawg]

Originally posted by Andy Edwards:

But drummers emulating drum and bass is seen in some quarters as clever. But this is not what this music form is about.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree with most of your views and I think we're on the same page about a lot of perspectives, but who's to say where a form of music should start or stop, or be about. With those views, we'd have never gotten to Rock n Roll because the Jazz pioneers had never intended for it to progress there. I think it's important to remember our roots and to stay pure to some degree but it's our job to evolve and find new ways to play different styles, no matter what form they were intended to be. I don't want to be left behind being bitter towards the future of music. The way I see it, you can let machines take over or you can learn to create that type of vibe. The human element will always shine through. Evolve or get left behind...
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 26, 2005 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Drumdawg ]</font>

[S.P]

[quote]Originally posted by Drumdawg:

Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
[qb]Evolve or get left behind...
Peace, Sammy J [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ November 26, 2005 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Drumdawg ]</font></font>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Precisely Sammy! Too many in my opinion get left behind with old thoughts, values and judgements...things change!

[PocketPlayer]

Things do change, BUT...if I hear Andy, his thoughts surround the idea of humanity vs. machine, and a sub thought might be human vs. human?musical drumming against non-musical drumming. The non-musical form being clinics and WFD competitions as primary careers over playing in a band or doing sessions.

This really is a different topic with a lot of overtones. Musical evolution is one thing, but what comes to my mind when I read this thread is making movies with computers and 3-D figures over real people. It?s like watching a video game. Over time, people might wonder? ?What happened to real actors?? Like Andy said about the music producer on the dance floor, ?Who needs real drummers?? Well, believe me when I say there are directors who would like to manipulate their movie projects and say, ?Who needs real actors if I can create a movie on my laptop??

So again, the question is about being human and using humans over machines. The general public, like with pop music, simply goes along with the flow. There are always thinkers (someone like Andy who has a different attitude than just accept and go with the flow) who question the system, but in large part, the system wins. It?s like a TV commercial, most would say they are not influenced by them, but these commercials invade our homes like roaches and rats, making impressions daily until we forget they are there. We think they are not influencing us, but there they are and they never go away! Over time, we accept the new reality they pitch?and then, the unpredictable happens?this might be a White Strips or another anomaly for 15 mins of fame.

The human spirit is extremely deep and demands depth in some form or another. Sometimes art provides this, sometimes not. The John Holmes quote was on the mark and maybe the best example of this idea of human vs non-human?we have legitimized the illegitimate in pornography?Why have a real woman when you can have a fantasy? Many try to blend both. It?s all about control.

Eventually, like it was said (the human element will always shine through)--the illegitimate wears off and the desire for something REAL wins out. The next generation will be very interesting to me. They were raised on electronics and have been given the "perfect" in terms of machine like perfection. They live in a video game world and will be raised on more graphic images of fake vs real...so what will they desire to see and hear? Will they appreciate what is real or will that be the new fad?

This is really very deep philosophical stuff here that taps into postmodern thought.

[djmuskateer]

Originally posted by Andy Edwards:
I once asked a a dance producer (who also loved jazz) why he didn't use real drummers. He said 'we don't need them, this music form is not about that. It's about pushing certain buttons in a club' [edit]
We are putting ourselves out of business. I think it's time drummers stopped emulating the machines and do what we do best, sound like humans! That way songwriters and producers at least have the choice.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Andy, don't you see we're putting ourselves back into business?! If machines do certain jobs well, the only way to wrestle gigs back from them is to do the same job as well or better.

And also, as a live d&b drummer (and I'm sure others on the board will agree with me), can I just go on the record and say Jojo Mayer is NOT
representational of live d&b or live d&b drumming. What Jojo does is amazing, and he has a greater facility than any other drummer working in the genre. And some of the stuff he does with Nerve is, from what glimpses I've had, fairly proper d&b with MCs and so on. BUT, really, you can tell he's a jazzer with a fusion background. He can reverse engineer a d&b beat better than anyone, but the stuff he plays along to negates all the hard work he's done because its too obviously to show off his drumming and, frankly, a bit naff a lot of the time (ie you'd never hear it in a club). Its a platform for his musical expression, whereas d&b is about dancing, not going to gawp at the drummer. Most live d&b does not have over the bar line soloing in it (mine does in rehersals but not the gigs!).

Furthermore, regarding using drummers in d&b: it is happening more and more, becasue the vitality of live drums (done well) in a d&b setting is just amazing, and makes even the most brilliantly produced records sound lame by comparison. So making d&b beats is big, funny & clever, its just that Jojo is doing it from a drummer's perspective, and the rest of us are doing it from a Dance-music perspective.